Cabrera ... Who's your daddy?

[Kroc]

To simplify the argument lets focus just on the hitting comparisons. Cabrera can't run or field, so that definitely clouds the discussion.

In my view, up to this point, comparing Cabrera to all time greats I would say he's a better hitter than Mantle, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Willie Stargel, Mike Schmidt, Duke Snider, Hank Greenburg, Al Kaline, and Albert Pujols.

I think he is about equal with Hank Aaron and not better, but very close to DiMaggio.

He is not better than Ruth, Gehrig, Musial, Williams, Foxx, Cobb, Hornsby.

I believe he is about 30 years old, which means he has about 5-6 more prime years which will in the end define where he ranks all time. He does have a shot to be one of the top five hitters of all time.

PS: I left Bonds and A-Rod out of the argument because of PED's.

[RobS]

Based on hitting alone, he is on track to push into the all time list.

But every player of this era now has to answer 'the question', until and unless baseball comes clean with 'the list', IMO.

[Kroc]

Originally Posted by RobS

Based on hitting alone, he is on track to push into the all time list.

But every player of this era now has to answer 'the question', until and unless baseball comes clean with 'the list', IMO.

What about players NOT on the list, but were steroid users? A large portion of steroid users will never be caught or linked to steroids. Just like some criminals never get caught. Its a shame but questions will always be there for any player who played post 1990.

[Bob D'Amico]

Reportedly Cabrera has a serious drinking problem, maybe he's seeing 2 or 3 balls and is just a damn lucky drunk.

[RobS]

Originally Posted by Kroc

What about players NOT on the list, but were steroid users? A large portion of steroid users will never be caught or linked to steroids. Just like some criminals never get caught. Its a shame but questions will always be there for any player who played post 1990.

In my mind, the question is settled.

1. Baseball and the MLB must release all the names of "known" steroid users
2. Baseball must continue to have mandatory, random testing using the best available methods. This will be an ongoing cat and mouse game of tests vs. concierge drugs. Failure of these tests must be severe and consistent, and must impact any of the records obtained by that player. For example, test failure eliminates contention from any record or HOF vote, for life.
3. Baseball's Hall of Fame and record books must divide itself into pre-strike/post-strike records.

Personally, the season HR record to me is held by Maris, and the overall record held by Hank Aaron.

Everyone after that gets an asterisk.

There will be questions, but like Don Quixote, we don't stop trying to slay the dragon.

[RobS]

One word about last night's series win by Detroit over the A's: Cabrera.

The guy is hurt, clearly can't drive the ball well.

But one mistake inside and seeya, HR, the game, and series!

[HookI]

There are HR hitters and there are Dangerous HR HITTERS ..Cabrera is one Dangerous HR Hitter ....Like Vladimir Guerrero , Dave Winfield , Gary Sheffield

[Kroc]

Originally Posted by RobS

Based on hitting alone, he is on track to push into the all time list.

But every player of this era now has to answer 'the question', until and unless baseball comes clean with 'the list', IMO.

Hey Rob I thought it would be interesting to revive this thread 6 years later.
Here's where we're at: Cabrera hasn't had a great season since 2016. Major injuries have kind of derailed his career. His power seems like it's gone. Only 4 homers this year which is pathetic the way the ball is flying out of parks. On a positive note he has never been linked to steroids and his play is declining as you would expect, unlike Bonds, Clemens etc...

So where does that leave him in the all time great discussion? I think he has fallen drastically. I can no longer put him ahead of Mantle or Pujols or in the class of Aaron and he is no where near the top tier Ruth, Gehrig etc.. Still, he could retire as one of the top 15-20 right handed batters of all time.

[RobS]

I think you got it right... the tail off looks similar to Mantle's except Mantle kept a little more power, and Cabrera a higher BA, generally speaking.


Injuries will do it, and tailing off is expected with age. If he came back with a big season now, one would definitely be suspecting PEDs.


Mantle has 8 seasons with >1.000 OPS vs. Cabrera's 3. but at 17 yrs vs 16 yrs, the 2 have very similar overall career batting trajectories.

[Kroc]

Originally Posted by RobS

I think you got it right... the tail off looks similar to Mantle's except Mantle kept a little more power, and Cabrera a higher BA, generally speaking.


Injuries will do it, and tailing off is expected with age. If he came back with a big season now, one would definitely be suspecting PEDs.


Mantle has 8 seasons with >1.000 OPS vs. Cabrera's 3. but at 17 yrs vs 16 yrs, the 2 have very similar overall career batting trajectories.

When this thread was started in 2013, he basically needed 5 more all star caliber seasons and then we could have had serious discussions about him being a top 5 or ten hitter of all time. That obviously didn't happen. Now the discussion is where do you put him in hitters of the last 20 years? He's definitely up there. Probably in the same class as Vladimir Gurrerro and a notch below Pujols. Man this fan zone doesn't get much traffic anymore does it?

[RobS]

Have to do some analysis on that. Need to find appropriate stats to compare.


Started with one top 20 list but realized it was prioritized by HR alone.

[RobS]

This site puts him at 21 ahead of Pujols


http://newarena.com/mlb/ranked-the-2...mlb-history/6/


I'm tending to think we have to separate modern players from some of the early years, which this site does not do. Guys like Honus Wagner, Ty Cobb...

I guess when you talk about "all time greats" you have to have a list like that: what made them great in their time and across time, just for the sheer magnitude of their (relative) impact. Like Babe Ruth: he's #1 by Yankee Fans of course, but up there, in spite of some of the criticisms when comparing eras... only 8 teams, no relief pitching per se etc etc. He was just such a huge personality and his hitting was so different than his contemporaries, it makes him rank up there "all time".


But at what point do we cut off for comparison? There will always be some differences that players faced in their own time.


At any rate, shame Miguel dropped off so much but yes, he's in the conversation of top 20, top 25, "all time"

[Kroc]

Originally Posted by RobS

This site puts him at 21 ahead of Pujols


http://newarena.com/mlb/ranked-the-2...mlb-history/6/


I'm tending to think we have to separate modern players from some of the early years, which this site does not do. Guys like Honus Wagner, Ty Cobb...

I guess when you talk about "all time greats" you have to have a list like that: what made them great in their time and across time, just for the sheer magnitude of their (relative) impact. Like Babe Ruth: he's #1 by Yankee Fans of course, but up there, in spite of some of the criticisms when comparing eras... only 8 teams, no relief pitching per se etc etc. He was just such a huge personality and his hitting was so different than his contemporaries, it makes him rank up there "all time".


But at what point do we cut off for comparison? There will always be some differences that players faced in their own time.


At any rate, shame Miguel dropped off so much but yes, he's in the conversation of top 20, top 25, "all time"

Ok just checked out the list from the above link. Every list is subjective but this list has a few MAJOR flaws. Jimmie Foxx number 19? Are you kidding me? He's top 10 at worst, possibly top 5. Roberto Clemente at number 7? In what universe? Ichiro was way higher than he should have been, no real power numbers to speak of. Thought Gherig should have been a little higher.

As far as comparing players from different eras, you really can't do it. What you can do is judge their career based on how much better they were than the competition at the time and based on this calculate their all time ranking. For example, if a player had a 400 average in a given year and there were 5 players that hit .380 or higher that year, the .400 doesn't look that spectacular. Same goes for HR, RBI etc...

[RobS]

I can't defend that site, it was just a quick hit... and was only posting as an example.


Each list is going to have flaws as it depends on so many things.